Revolver Vs. Pistol

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Murder by Death
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Revolver Vs. Pistol

Post by Murder by Death » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:21 am

So the 1949 games all introduced a gun which is clearly depicted a semi-automatic pistol, but labeled it as a revolver. It remained that way until the 1963 US version changed it to an actual revolver (though the token did not change until 1972). The UK edition of course did not change until 1996. But Pratt's 1944 patent clearly shows an actual revolver.

So what happened? Wikipedia indicates that following WWII the semi-automatic pistol became the weapon of choice in most countries' militaries, so too I imagine it captured the popular interest as well. But if that is the case, why didn't Waddingtons just change the name from Revolver to Pistol, if they were going to depict and actual pistol? And if not Waddingtons, then why not Parker Brothers who took it upon themselves to change the Dagger to a Knife (for no good reason I can tell) and Spanner to Wrench (O.K. so that one was the same thing, just a different name). The US version was the perfect opportunity to get it right, but didn't.

Can anybody figure that one out? Were Revolver and Pistol interchangeable in the late 40s? Seems unlikely. The dictionary defines "revolver" as a type of "pistol", but a "revolver" must have a revolving chamber. So I am at a loss as to why they would make and perpetuate such a blatant mistake in the first place. It's not like there was any tradition to adhere to at that point, unlike today after 60 years of the name "revolver" being a part of Cluedo, regardless of how it was depicted.

ON A SIDE NOTE: Does anybody know what kind of pistol is depicted in the 1949-1996 UK edition? Since it is a real photograph, it must have been a model that existed at that time. The token more or less matches the card up until the 1960s or 70s Cluedo edition which then appears to copy the Walther PPK – perhaps the James Bond influence?
Last edited by Murder by Death on Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Murder by Death » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:23 am

Anyone know when the Black Revolver became silver in the US & UK editions? Was it ever black in the US editions?

Was it originally just some black paint over the pewter token?

Also, the knife appears to have been painted black in some editions. Or, was that just corrosion from age?

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Post by fendue » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:25 pm

I have the 1949, 1963 and 1972 editions and none of the weapons are black.

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Post by cacums » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:26 pm

The revolver was painted black.

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Post by Murder by Death » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:20 am

Obviously the reinvention game has reintroduced the pistol in place of the revolver, including a silencer – in some sense correcting the original discrepancy between the original token and the name.

I'm not really happy about the name change, per se. However, there is a certain amount of legitimacy to it since the token and artwork depicted a pistol for over 13 years in the US and 47 years in the UK, and the token only for another decade in the US.

The decision to use a pepperbox revolver by Parker Bros. has always struck me as odd, other than it just seemed appropriately creepy for the mood of the 1972 edition. But then it stuck for every edition since then.

But today, I just gained new found respect for one aspect of the reinvention pistol: the silencer.

Aside form the major problem in Clue of having to deduce the weapon when the wound would obviously identify it, unless the revolver is used to bludgeon instead of shoot, a gun is going to make a lot of noise, so that all the other guests would come running before the victim could be dragged to the cellar stairs.

The silencer solves that problem. So whether you prefer a pistol or a revolver, a silencer could be used with either (depending on model) and solves just one more problem with Clue's internal logic. Except, a silencer can't be used with the classic pepperbox revolver introduced in the 1972 game, which I never really liked that much to begin with.

So give me a classic single barrel revolver and a suppressor and I'll show you a classic Clue murder that doesn't bring the guests running.

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Post by Michael » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:47 am

It was a dark and stormy night...

The murderer timed the gunshot just right to coincide with the thunder...
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Post by munitzer » Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:20 am

I think the name on the card should be changed for the weapon pictured. With the revolver, I feel that that is more appropriate for the country estate milieu of Master Detective or classic Clue. I think that the switch to the pistol with the silencer was a smart revision for Clue Reinvention. To me, having a silencer makes the most sense.

The weapon pictured should match its name. If it's a kitchen knife, call it a knife. If it's an ornamental dagger, call it a dagger. I don't think that tradition should outweigh logic. However, there should be consistency. Knives and daggers seem more interchangable than revolvers and pistols.

Since the suspects are the ones solving the crime and none of them are professional detectives, it would make sense for Mrs. Peacock to pick up a dagger and call it a knife. It would make sense for Miss Scarlet to pick up a pistol and call it a revolver or vice versa. The one person I'd assume would be excluded from making that mistake would be Colonel Mustard.

I have never liked the pepperbox revolver. It's always looked ridiculous and bulky. However, I recently looked up a video on youtube with someone shooting a relatively small pepperbox revolver. Even though he was outside, it made a rather dull (to steal a phrase from Death on the Nile) popping noise like a champagne bottle.

The murderer could also have used a pillow or stole (again, I'm stealing from Death on the Nile) as an impromptu silencer. That could add a clue, i.e. a missing pillow from the divan in the ballroom.
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Post by CluedoKid » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:35 pm

Actually, I think that an ornamental dagger could be called a knife, but not visa versa. The revolver/pistol mistake is a little harder to get past, but informally, I've seen instances with the term "revolver" applied to any handheld automatic, athough, I think the term "pistol" seems more appropriate to be used interchangably.
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Post by Murder by Death » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:49 pm

Michael wrote:The murderer timed the gunshot just right to coincide with the thunder...
Actually, that would make a great scene in a movie. The murder sees the lightening and counts the seconds till the thunder hits ... then waits for the next flash, and begins the count as they approach the victim. Would make a great moment ... surely it has been done?
munitzer wrote:it made a rather dull... popping noise
munitzer, thanks for that ... perhaps there was more to the selection of the pepperbox in '72 than meets the eye. Maybe somebody proposed how preposterous it would be to fire a gun without getting caught and someone proposed the pepperbox as a solution. In many ways the '72 game was very well thought out – then again they got the Conservatory completely wrong.

I agree, Peacock and Scarlett might call a a dagger a "knife". A revolver is a pistol so that's technically correct. But by today's standards, I would be genuinely surprised if anyone would call a semi-automatic a revolver (or even use the term revolver casually). Which is why I'm so perplexed about the 1949 game introduction (though less so after CluedoKid's input). Frankly I think the novice would simply call it a gun ... which solves the problem entirely, though it's not as atmospheric.

The throw pillow makes a good clue, not sure how good a silencer, though it helps hide the gun from the victim allowing even a bad shot to get very close – "here let me get you a pillow for you back...". You have also given me something else to consider ... why would a gun with a suppressor be on premises? It either paints a particular picture about the host, or brought in specifically for the murder. I've always preferred the idea that the gun was already there, in the hosts' study desk, or nightstand, etc. (fully loaded and ready to use), which also paints a particular picture about the host – or it was Col. Mustard's taken from his holster in his bedroom.

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Post by Green » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:43 pm

All of this talk reminds of the movie. It is specifically set in the United States, but for the most part, the knife is referred to as "the dagger." The revolver is called "the gun" for most of the film. I think the idea of the characters mislabeling the weapons is a fun one. I can see Colonel Mustard standing there rolling his eyes as they call the dagger a "knife," but getting upset and insisting on fixing the label "gun" to the appropriate "revolver" (or "pistol").

As for the real-world problem... who knows? I think it's likely that Pratt wanted a revolver, since that is depicted in the patent, and then the company's artwork accidentally used a pistol instead.

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Post by Murder by Death » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:37 pm

Green wrote:the company's artwork accidentally used a pistol instead.
accidentally? No. Too many opportunities to change it over the intervening years. In fact, I would have expected the public to urge the change in the early days if it were truly a disparate combination. The fact the Parker perpetrated it in the US, is even more mystifying, especially considering the Western gun culture, and they didn't hesitate to change so many other things.

It was definitely premeditated. ;-)
Last edited by Murder by Death on Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Murder by Death » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:57 pm

I just noticed that the Revolver in the Limited Gift Edition is labeled "Pistol"!

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Now this was 1997, long before Hasbro started modernizing things. Granted a semi-automatic pistol has been depicted as the revolver for several decades in various editions, but it was always labeled "Revolver". I think this may be the first instance of changing the name of the gun to "Pistol" ever. It's also pretty ironic considering that Cluedo had just changed to depicting an actual revolver only the year before.

I think if I had bought this in 1997, I would have been disappointed that the "Revolver" card was mislabeled, and would have been a bit confused about the semi-automatic pistol had I not known about the pre-1972 editions, or the existence of Cluedo – does the LGE explain this change at all in the included documentation? I see The Story of Clue says "This special version of CLUE is authentic in every detail, featuring all the suspects, rooms and weapons, you've come to love since childhood." – except the Pistol is all wrong!

Has any other English edition ever called the Revolver a "Pistol" before or since, until DTS added a silencer?

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Post by Murder by Death » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:21 am

Anybody know when the UK Cluedo Revolver (pistol) token changed?

In 1949 the black-painted token closely matched the card depicting a Dreyse M1907 (the card of course did not change until 1996).

However, at some point the token changed to a black-painted Walther PPK, then to an unpainted version, followed by a gold-toned version, which I think survived until 1996 when it changed to the pepperbox revolver.

Anybody know what years these changes took place? Did they correspond to the edition changes in 1965, '72, and '83?

As with the US 50's edition knife, it is frustrating that the UK editions changed the token but never updated the card.

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Post by Murder by Death » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:45 am

Fascinating article about the original Cluedo Revolver (pistol).

http://anonymous-generaltopics.blogspot ... m1907.html

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Last edited by Murder by Death on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:32 am

The revolver is cool, is it good for the first timer?

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Post by Michael » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:13 pm

Hmmm... is that last post spam? Sometimes it's hard to tell.
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Post by Murder by Death » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:39 pm

Came across this gold plated Walther PP, which is what the 1970-96 UK token is based on. I can definitely see this in the hands of one of the dinner guests.

So what's the theory here -- did the gun belong to Dr. Black? Or did one of the guests bring it, thereby making the discovery of the murderer even more difficult.

This is an interesting side-note: http://www.vincelewis.net/hitlersgun.html

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Last edited by Murder by Death on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Black » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:59 am

The Suspect With The Golden Gun.

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Post by Murder by Death » Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:14 pm

Black wrote:The Suspect With The Golden Gun.
But that's what it has always been for 20 years from the early 70s through the mid-90s, right?

It's too bad that there was never an edition of Cluedo that depicted the actual Walther PP token used, especially after watching Parker Brothers create 5 different sets of artwork during the same period. It just seems a wasted opportunity to update at least their card sets. Hmmm. I think I just got an idea for a new project ...

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Post by Murder by Death » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:12 pm

Here's something interesting …

This claims to be an illustration for one of a set of 5 weapons done for a updated version of Cluedo for Hasbro. It was used on the packaging and playing cards.

http://rb3d.co.uk/illustration_12.html

It's absolutely beautiful … I thought it was real …

And I think it's the revolver used in the the new Classic Mystery Game … which is a shame if so, as the artwork is so compromised …

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